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Why Internet Explorer 8 is shaping up to be another IE6
Posted on Thursday, March 6th, 2008 under browser news, web standards by Dustin Brewer.We all know the blood, sweat and tears we have put into countless hour of development specifically for Internet Explorer 6 since August of 2001. Now it looks like we may be coming to battle with another problematic browser from software giant, Microsoft. The IE8 team is deliberately making up their own rules again and now adhering to the organizations involved with standards even though they are (seemingly) active members of the respective groups. You would think that with the budget that the team has to develop a decent browser that they would be able to product something worth-while. Unfortunately for the rest of the world that because IE comes pre-installed on Windows machines most consumers don’t know the difference.
So we are stuck with a sub-par browser that everyone is forced to use, therefore we inevitably have to support it and develop strange and peculiar methods to get the browser to render pages properly. At any rate, lets go over all of the things I have found (some with the help of others) that the browser fails to support, or tags and code that the browser is trying to invent outside of the proper channels.
Internet Explorer 8 team lied to us?
Thats right, we all heard the news about Internet Explorer 8 passing the acid2 test. Unfortunately we were all lied to in order to drum up hype for the forthcoming browser from Microsoft. The beta release of IE8 does not pass the acid2 test, it is close— but no cigar. We were told back in December that the browser had passed the acid2 test with flying colors and that IE8 would be standards compliant. It’s not, and it is actually going backwards from being standards compliant.
Microsoft and IE are making up markup again?
It looks like they are at it again, trying to even the way the web works on there own without the support of millions of developers and the standards organizations that we all strive to adhere. They have added their own new tags into IE8 such as adding additional methods to make HTML5 asynchronous, such as begin() and commit(), and also adds clear() and remainingSpace. They introduced even more incompatible text/html parsing rules in IE8[1] that differ from the way that browsers such as Firefox and Opera parse html.
They have also announced today that they plan to implement a meta tag that allows developers to opt-out of standards mode. Incase it is too difficult? I’m not sure what this move is supposed to signify but after all of these years I think we would all like to see a standards-compliant browser be pre-installed on consumers’ computers so we can all get just a little more sleep.
Check out the IE8 release notes yourself to find out more about this beta release of the “Internet Explorer 8 Readiness Toolkit.”
Looking beyond just web standards in IE8
Despite all of this the browser itself is still nowhere near the level that Firefox, Opera or Safari are when it comes to speed, flexibility and features-set. The browser runs incredibly slow (even slower than IE7) and generally seems like it should still be in alpha. I have had numerous sites appear broken on it, including this site, CNN, HP, Newsvine, MSNBC and even Digg was looking a little odd on IE8.
Hopefully they get their act together and realize that in order to regain the confidence of web designers, developers and programmers everywhere that they need to adhere to the standards coming from the HTML Working Group, WHATWG and the W3C. They need to actively work on security measures that don’t prevent usability and building out features in the browser that make it worth using as an alternative.
Update: It appears that IE8 does in fact pass the official acid2 test, when I was writing this article the official test was down due to server strain with the release of IE8. I know it is beta, not a release candidate or the final version. I’m fully aware of that fact. You know who else has a browser in beta? Firefox. If IE8 wasn’t ready to be released as a beta to Developers then they shouldn’t have released it.
Whats Next?
62 Responses to “Why Internet Explorer 8 is shaping up to be another IE6”
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About Dustin Brewer
Dustin Brewer is a freelance web designer based out of Oklahoma City, OK passionate about web standards, and beautiful web design. Dustin Brewer has been in the web design industry for over 8 years through freelance and professional experience. If you are interested in hiring Dustin Brewer please visit the web design services page to find out more information. You can also checkout the web design portfolio.
Wow. One would think they would have tested this stuff. Thanks for the head’s up on this.
You would be surprised. I’m sure more will surface as time goes by, this stuff is just what has been discovered about it in the 1 day that it has been available for beta testing.
I’m not saying they won’t clean up their act, but releasing a beta version to developers they should at least make an attempt.
Wow, you’re an idiot. This isn’t a release candidate or anything. IT’S A BETA. Read that line 10 times, and if it sticks you’ll understand why. It’s for people to test it out, leave feedback, so they can release another stable build.
“Oh you think they would of tested this”
“It’s a microsoft product, of course it sucks”
“Yeah I’ll judge a product, even though it isn’t even a final build, or ready for use”
someone is off their meds
“hmm” wouldn’t this article be considered feedback from the community that beta tests things, like oh… i don’t know… developers? i think implying that this article is anti-microsoft for the sake of being anti-microsoft is pretty absurd. It is you that need to rtfa and go sit in your corner.
I can agree with ‘Hmm’ that it is in fact a beta and not a release candidate but MS did say they had it passing the acid2 test and now that it is released in beta it doesn’t even render websites as good as ie7. Very microsoftish, anti-microsoft if you will (they do suck).
You know this is a beta 1 for Developers, right? You make some firm statements that seem pretty baseless for an unreleased product.
It was stated very obviously that this was not a render engine complete beta, the build that passed the acid 2 test may very well not be ready to show yet. Poorly researched articled with tons of conclusion jumping.
Lots of microsoft fanboys out and about this evening!
This is really frustrating to hear like this if its truth..thanks for opening the eyes..
Before flaming the new browser in which Microsoft has worked incredibly hard on, and after participating actively in the developer community, listening to our requests, make sure you get your facts right.
http://ajaxian.com/archives/ie-8-on-acid
It does pass the Acid2 test. Now don’t you feel like the idiot.
And talking about the speed and flexibility? Like others said before me, it is a BETA release. It isn’t perfect, its a GIANT leap from IE7/6, and a great step forward for developers and web standards in IE browsers.
Ya man, slow down the criticism. They are making huge strides, and it will no way be another IE6.
Beta man, BETA. Christ….
What markup have they made up and how is it failing to pass Acid2?
can we all just swallow our pride and make a universal box model accepted by every browser?
i’m sick of getting phone calls at 2 AM from a client saying “I JUST CHECKED OUT THE SITE ON MY BROTHER’S DECADE OLD LAPTOP USING IE 3 1/2, AND THE ENTIRE PAGE BREAKS. WE NEED A FIX NOW!!!!”
c’mon guys. i don’t care whose we use, let’s all just pick one and move on. we now have coding languages like processing, capable of displaying data like heat and light in a dynamic visual form that you can plug into a java applet, yet we’re still stuck on deciding how to render boxes?
@cssjunky:
Ha! Too true. But the box model appears fine. At least Anne van Kesteren and Dustin here aren’t complaining about that.
But if you take a look at my site [barneycarroll.com], IE8 displays two interesting bugs (CSS and JS — both visible in the rendering): Look at the bottom margin and the border of the top-fixed bar. This last one renders different kinds of fine in IE6, IE7, FF, Opera and Safari, but this is ugly.
I agree with you 110% Dustin. I do not care if it is a beta, they should have been quality checking this all along. It runs incredibly slow, and renders sites absurdly.
Not to mention the neat little “IE7 mode” button…AWESOME FEATURE, so awesome in fact, you have to close down the browser, and then re-open it. Suppose you have multiple tabs open and just want to check one site in IE7 mode, great, now it has to shut down, re-open, and then you get all the tabs in IE7.
What they need to do is just copy the Mozilla framework, change some names around, and call it a day.
Matt Rossi: The “IE 7 Mode” button is there for developers that installed IE8 – did you nottice that you no longer can run IE7?
Now imagin you’re a web developer (and from your words all I can tell you’re not … or that’s not your job) and wanted to test IE8. Ok, installed, some pages look bad.
Now, you want to go back to testing your products on the *current* browser (IE7) and … you cant?! You cant start the 7th version of IE – that’s where the button comes in handy.
And I’ve got no idea how could you do that without the restart. IE8 uses completly new (as in “written from 0″) rendering engine – there’s no way to switch it on-the-fly.
Another thing why pages look like mess – the IE team took away all the conditional comments ( thingies) that worked only in IE, and were made-up by IE team – now ALL the stuff that usually serves browser-and-version speciffic CSS end in IE8 rendering engine and makes the site look bad.
Oh, and the last part. Would you rather have to rewrite every page, even the one that looks bad on your client uncle sisters lover dog 5 year old laptop with IE 6 or just add a “oh, Hi there IE8, please use your IE7 engine to render this page” markup? I would.
Please get your fackts straight before jumping to wrong conclusions.
[...] Why Internet Explorer 8 is shaping up to be another IE6 dustinbrewer.com/ [...]
IE8 passes Acid2 test. I have it here on XP SP2 and it does pass indeed.
Maybe you’re not using the official Acid2 test, but one of those “Acid2″ tests that use cross referencing that IE8 blocks? Those are not VALID (nor official) Acid2 tests. The one that matters, IE8 passes it.
Period. Stop lying.
“Not to mention the neat little “IE7 mode†button…AWESOME FEATURE, so awesome in fact, you have to close down the browser, and then re-open it.”
WOW! First you guys say IE8 doesn’t pass Acid2 (it fuckin DOES!) and now this stupidity..??!
In IE8, go to Tools->Developer Tools and then in “View” mode you can pick:
Quirks (IE5)
Strict (IE7)
Standard (IE8)
And you can switch without restarting IE8.
What a lame blog post and what a bunch of idiots commenting (including me)..
I can’t believe how many people are getting so angry, it seems like there would be a more calm manner in which to convey your message other then calling Dustin and everyone else an idiot.
To be honest mate, these are invited comments on a blog post which is itself an erroneous vitriolic tirade. I’d say the ball’s in the air.
Dustin you could do yourself a huge favour by making an edit or at least sepcifying what you think is wrong with the box model/acid2 test. Honestly, I downloaded it — and it’s fine.
Can anyone explain why it is running terribly slow? It just feels bloated.
Also, why does it not render pages as other compliant browsers do?
Explain these 2 points without using the argument of it being a beta.
This is a multi-billion dollar company, it just seems like something that would have been worked out even before a beta release.
Jason
1. Bloated/slow. Often developers have a lot of debugging code and unoptimized code in a BETA. this is a valid answer dude, you can’t say give me an answer, but it can’t be “beta” if the right answer IS beta.
2. Which compliant browser, FF renders differently the Opera, which renders differently then Webkit which renders differently then IE. BETA implies not done, they specifically stated they intend to support the full CSS 2.1 spec (if memory serves). You can’t look at beta software and expect it to behave like software that is several months down the road.
3. I hate IE, I hate working with IE, i hate the UI of ie, but i hate blog posts with poorly researched facts a hell of a lot more
So, we were “lied” to about acid2?? Sorry, guy, that’s as far as I read. When you make shit up, that’s called lying. When IE8 doesn’t pass somebody else’s hosted version of acid2 because of IE’s cross domain security checks, that isn’t called lying. That’s called being secure.
http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/03/05/why-isn-t-ie8-passing-acid2.aspx
I may be a bg dick sucking fanboi, but at least I don’t have to make shit up in order to bash microsoft.
Thanks everyone who was able to let me know about the information that was announced in this developing story. Apparently, as you may have gathered, some of the acid2 tests that are available as a backup (for when the official version goes down) were not properly setup. Therefore, there was a lot of speculation that IE8 didn’t pass the acid2 test. The official acid2 test can be found here:
http://www.webstandards.org/files/acid2/test.html#top
Thanks james, but what I am basically talking about is the whole deal with, sites that already render correctly in FF, Opera, Safari, IE7, IE6, etc,. blow up in IE8…For example view simplebits.com in IE8, then in FF, or any other browser. Notice the menu has extra padding or an unwanted margin at the bottom of it.
I only use that site for an example, because I remember viewing it the other night with IE8 and it not looking “right”.
And as beta, its fine that it isnt rendering correctly. In the final version it more then likely will render it right. It’s good to report a bug, its bad to read into that bug like its a conspiracy theory. When the browser is finalized or at a release candidate, that is the time to get aggressive with major bugs in layout. Simple as that.
Valid points, and I think it is just residual hate and anger for the years of crap we have put up with. It becomes almost a given that shit will be busted with their releases.
I suppose we should all just wait it out, and hope for the best, and not jump to conclusions.
I completely agree!! This is getting old! I have a dream that one day when I code a site I’ll only have to do it the correct way, not the right way and then twist around to make IE render right also. All IE8 has given us is another headache. Now we’ll have to code for standards, IE7 and IE8….
also to the morons above me who left comments saying to lay off the complaints, don’t post on a blog meant for developers if you’re not one. If you think what this guy is saying is load of crap then you have obviously never dealt with design and development for cross compatibility.
Why Internet Explorer 8 is shaping up to be another IE6…
We all know the blood, sweat and tears we have put into countless hour of development specifically for Internet Explorer 6 since August of 2001. Now it looks like we may be coming to battle with another problematic browser from software giant, Microsof…
[...] Why Internet Explorer 8 is shaping up to be another IE6 Related StuffNo Related Post [...]
Andrew Sauder,
Nice try, but I’m a developer, and this blog post was utter tripe. Trying to make it sound worse by striking out one paragraph and posting a comment about it being “a developing story” doesn’t help. The story was never developing. You don’t post something, if you don’t have the facts, ESPECIALLY if it’s something laden with the vitriol this was. Every bit of criticism of this post is warranted, and then some.
Whether or not this post is accurate, I for one would very much like to see Internet Explorer either start working with the guidelines that all of the other browsers use, or I’d like to see it vanish.
Why not just make more people aware of browsers that actually work, as opposed to all of the painful hacking and mewling that we currently have to entertain by having to deal with IE?
If you’re a developer, and you’re reading this – perhaps you should let your friends, family and customers know about their choices, as a large majority of people today are only using and supporting IE because they’re unaware of their alternatives.
Personally, I detest IE, because I always get the feeling that they just don’t give a damn about the people who use their product. Why should you have to suffer through buggy code, slowed performance, and dodgy fixes like the whole Flash debacle.
I sense that a lot of people reading and commenting here are ardent supporters of IE, and everyone is entitled to their opinion, but unless IE get a lot of feedback, and actually DO something with it, there’s not going to be much by way of change.
Why the hell didn’t ie7 pass the Acid2 test? Actually, ie6 should have been a standards compliant browser in the first place. As a professional web developer myself I know the pain involved in getting a great design to render properly in all browsers. I guess we’ve all had enough with IE and we can’t help but bash Microsoft. Let’s hope that ie8 will end this bullshit. If successful it will still take a couple of years before it becomes mainstream (sigh).
@Mike:
Please, stop worrying. IE8 passes the Acid2 test. Everyone knows it. If you think it doesn’t, try it. It’s freely available. Even Dustin’s crossed out his bizarre lie.
Well, it will be another crappy browser as always!
Just my 2 cents..
@Wakish:
You found a bug?
I do actually believe that ie8 passes the acid2 test. But why the hell didn’t ie7. It’s been around 10 years since the w3c group formed. Why couldn’t a billion dollar company do a proper job with ie7 (seventh fucking version) while a bunch of bedroom coders did it years ago with firefox.
Seems like they are always losing their specification documents and have to guess all the way. – no offence. Just a joke.
Mike: Firefox 2 dosn’t pass Acid 2. Firefox 3 does, but it wasn’t done “years ago” – FF3 was released after IE7. Just wanted to make it clear.
I don’t know how these commentators found your blog, but I’ve been keeping in touch with your website since before this entry.
While IE was probably aimed at the common person who doesn’t know HTML, IE8 was supposed to become web developer-friendly.
We are allowed to criticize Internet Explorer 8’s flaws, especially if it is a beta version. It needs our feedback. Here is a post from someone who has web design/development wisdom. This is called constructive criticism; It’s not a personal attack on anyone. Some of the comments on this entry are way out of line.
I agree that some of the comments are ridiculous. However, instead of complaining about the issues we should be reporting them to MS (then maybe complain about them) so they’ll fix before it gets to release.
I wrote a post about that on my site http://www.frickinsweet.com/ryanlanciaux.com/post/IE82c-Microsoft-and-the-Reverse-Fanboys.aspx
This is just so typically Microsoft. I can’t imagine what all the pro-MS chatter here is when this is suppose to be a blog read by web designers/developers… maybe you all just don’t bother with standards to begin with? Microsoft made their “standards opt-out” tag just for you all…
Point being this folks, an alpha is generally “not feature complete”, a beta is generally “feature complete but still bug hunting”, and RC means “we got the bugs hammered out… we think… check us out”. So chances are VERY good that if something doesn’t work in the beta… especially something like, oh I dunno the “double margin” bug that IE has been sooooo famous for for years now… that it will continue to NOT WORK in IE8.
The double margin but is still there, right where everyone can see it. There’s really no use defending MS in these regards, they’ve disregarded the standard completely by adding additional markup, and as the huge software giant they are, they have a responsibility to give the average consumer a product worth using. They’ll never do that as that would promote competition, instead of destroying it. If MS chooses to make up their own standard, that makes them the de-facto standards definition group and the W3C can screw themselves because there’s no legal way to enforce the standards…
@Kris: Are you generalizing all .NET developers into people who don’t care about web standards? It sure sounds like it.
Ryan,
Surely not, .NET can output standards compliant code as easily as the next product, my statement is meant for people defending IE8 and it’s obvious lack of adherence to standards. There’s no excuse for it if MS is going to sell it as being “standards compliant”… beta or not.
@Kris: Okay thanks for clearing that up; just wanted to make sure. I will say, I’m not defending IE8 but it’s definitely way better than IE6.
So is Firefox
… and Safari for that matter.
I agree but the Title of the article is not “Why Firefox is shaping up to be another IE6″ =P
I’m just saying that’s why you’re seeing so many people ‘defending’ IE8. I use Firefox or Safari mainly but when a naive, ill-researched article came out I wanted to respond. I mean yea, it’s great for pulling in hits and generating ad revenue but honestly, IE8 is nowhere near as bad as IE6.